Mission to Grow: A Small Business Guide to Cash, Compliance, and the War for Talent

MTG - EP 123 - Mary Simmons
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Mary: [00:00:00] That word sex, um, the EEOC, so the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, governs this. piece of legislation called Title 7, uh, which was enacted in 1964.

So just geeking out on some, on some terminology. But the reason that I say all of that, Mike, is because I want everybody to understand this is a federal, uh, So every employer, look, does it say, uh, you know, in Title 7 that, that there's an employee count, um, of about 15? Yes. Does that mean that if you have less than 15 employees, it's okay if you, um, have a case of anti harassment and you're not gonna, can't get sued?

No, absolutely not.

Intro: Welcome to Mission to Grow, the small business guide to cash, compliance, and the war for talent. I'm your host, Mike Vannoy. Each week, we'll bring you experts in [00:01:00] accounting, finance, human resources, benefits, employment law, and more. You'll learn ways to access capital through creative financing and tax strategies, tactical information you need to stay compliant with ever changing employment laws, and people strategies you need to win the war for talent.

Mission to Grow is sponsored by Asure helps more than 100, 000 businesses get access to capital. Stay compliant and develop the talent they need to grow. Enjoy the show.

Mike: What every small business owner needs to know about anti harassment training. Now, I intentionally chose the words anti harassment, not anti sexual harassment, because I think so many businesses, you know, if you live in a state that, you know, it's the law you got to follow, you can't do, you got to implement some, uh, uh, training.

I think a lot of us think about sexual harassment. Certainly that's an important component, but we need to broaden our scope a little bit today. Uh, and I got to. Perfect guest to do that. So if you're a regular watcher of the show, you know our own vice president of HR compliance, Mary Simmons. Welcome to the show, Mary.

Mary: [00:02:00] Thanks, Mike.

Mike: So we're going to go, we're going to go a little bit deeper here on anti harassment training. Uh, who's required to comply, who's not, uh, but really more, more importantly, Even if you don't have a law in your state that requires you to do something, what should you be doing in this category? If someone only caught the first five minutes of the show today, what's the one takeaway that you want them to have about anti harassment training, especially for small and mid sized companies?

Mary: Um, I'll make it really easy. Everybody has to do it or should do it to protect their company. That's what I want to say. I think it's important culturally and I think it's important to protect your organization against litigation, which no one is exempt from. Whether you have five or five thousand employees, nobody's exempt from, being charged with, an anti harassment claim.

And we'll talk about what that is.

Mike: Yeah, [00:03:00] yeah, so maybe let's start then, you know, I'll, spoiler alert, I want to come back to, I think there's another component. I think it's so easy to think about sexual harassment training, anti harassment training is a legal requirement, therefore a compliance requirement, or a risk mitigation strategy.

All those things are true.

Mary: Correct.

Mike: I think done correctly, This can be part of an intentional way to build an employee culture based on trust, respect, transparency, that really becomes part of your, uh, part of your, uh, uh, strategy, how to attract and retain talented people, the kind of people that you want in your business.

So we'll, we'll maybe, maybe, maybe we'll end there.

Mary: Good, good. I love that.

Mike: Yeah. So, so let's start with maybe the more obvious stuff. So some states can require this, others don't. What, what can you, what can you share? What should small [00:04:00] business owners know about anti harassment training from a legal standpoint?

Mary: So let's start with, uh, sort of the birth of anti harassment, um, as a whole. And anti harassment includes sexual harassment, uh, and that is harassment based on sex. And a lot of things are covered by sex. That word sex, um, the EEOC, so the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, governs this. piece of legislation called Title 7, uh, which was enacted in 1964.

So just geeking out on some, on some terminology. But the reason that I say all of that, Mike, is because I want everybody to understand this is a federal, uh, So every employer, look, does it say, uh, you know, in Title 7 that, that there's an employee count, um, of about 15? Yes. Does that [00:05:00] mean that if you have less than 15 employees, it's okay if you, um, have a case of anti harassment and you're not gonna, can't get sued?

No, absolutely not. So the reason I start at the birthplace of Of this legislation, which, by the way, is one of the biggest pieces of legislation, uh, you know, to come forth in the HR world, and there's lots of components to it, um, is because it does affect every employer, um, in the nation. So, we're gonna talk about, you know, there's six main states, um, That mandate the sexual harassment training and I've said before, you know, you'd be remiss and we always include anti harassment within that training, right?

So, in general, the EEOC has a list [00:06:00] of protected classes and those protected classes age, sex, religion, um, you know, uh, sex, of course. But. States and municipalities can add to those protected classes. So this week, um, I flew to North Carolina, South Carolina, and did a presentation for some business owners there. And in those states, uh, North and South Carolina was kind of on the border. Um, They, you know, in general, obviously, or maybe not obvious, they don't have a mandate to do the anti sexual harassment training, and there's not a ton of employment laws. So, speaking to the employers before my presentation, they were like, yeah, I'm interested to hear what you're going to say, because there isn't a lot.

Um, and when I started talking about this piece of legislation. And that North [00:07:00] Carolina added protected categories and even further, Charlotte, which is one of the bigger cities there, added more protected categories. There was a lot of jaw dropping. And they were like, really? Hairstyle is protected if it's part of their religious beliefs?

In North Carolina, Mary, I had no idea. And that is why we, we customize and an employer should customize the training that they do, uh, for employees. And I'm a big proponent of giving it to the managers because there are so many nuances here. And remember, Mike, these laws go from your ad. So it's not just affecting your employees.

It goes from your ad all the way to termination and everything in between. So it's candidates, [00:08:00] it's employees, and it's when you terminate that employee, everybody gets affected by these laws.

Mike: Yeah, that's right. That's right. Um,

I don't know if there's any public data out there. My sense is, so, so I think it feels almost like Captain Obvious, uh, okay, if the law says you got to do it, you got to do it. Fair to say there's a massive lack of awareness, uh, about um, The laws that do exist on the books in most businesses would probably be shocked how many laws actually govern what they're required to do and have no idea.

Is that, that you agree with that?

Mary: I do. I think, I think. And I, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I do still get on the call on calls with employers in California who don't realize that they have, they're mandated to do the anti sexual harassment training. So that's [00:09:00] California, New York, Connecticut. Maine, um, see, even I forget, Illinois, um, and Delaware have the mandate, but it's different in every state.

Delaware's over 50 employees. New York is any employee. Um, Illinois has different requirements in Chicago than they have, uh, in the rest of the state. New York, uh, New York City is a little bit different. California Uh, same thing, the municipalities jump into the action and say, you know, different protected classes.

So you have to include that in your training. But I think people would be surprised to hear that Washington State has certain regulations for retailers, restaurants, motels, hotels. Here's what I'm going to tell you if you're in Washington state, don't try to [00:10:00] decide whether you fit into those categories.

Do the training. District of Columbia and Virginia have different regulations as well. So even as an HR professional that supports a national team providing this training on a daily basis, it's hard for us to keep up with. And that's why Just one of the reasons I think all employers should be doing this training.

Mike: So, uh, you know, selfish pitch. We'd love to help clients out with this is what your team does. Uh, for somebody listening who, uh, isn't a client, isn't going to be in the near future. What. What should they do? What, what, what's, where do they get this information to know what they're, what the, what laws to even follow?

Because you got federal, you got state, you got local, um, three potential different sources. Where should employers go to even understand what laws they must comply [00:11:00] with?

Mary: yeah, that's a great place to start. Let me, let me also add that 1 of the other reasons I feel really strongly. That this training should be done for all employers in every state, at least annually employees and managers should be trained separately because they can stop. Bad behavior before it starts is that, and I know you did a seminar on the Pregnancy Workers Fairness Act earlier in the year.

So I encourage everybody to watch that webinar that webinar.

Mike: episodes. If you guys, uh, at late September, I think, uh, with our mutual friend, Brian Shanker, uh, from Jackson Lewis, who had an attorney on to talk on unpack the requirements of that. So invite folks to go back and watch that episode.

Mary: Yeah, definitely. And it, you know, was enacted in June of this year. Uh, we haven't had, you know, huge pieces of legislation. There's actually two federal [00:12:00] this year. Uh, this one, and of course the increase in, uh, minimum salary. But that piece of legislation really broke out pregnancy. So as I was starting to say, um, About six years ago, the EEOC was sort of looking at their protected classes and some of the states had decided, Oh, I'm going to take sex and I'm going to break it apart.

I'm going to add a protected category for pregnancy. I'm going to add a protected category for transgender, um, and, you know, maybe they, maybe they also added, uh, something for, you know, hairstyles. So, uh, marital status. These, these are some of the additional protected categories. The EEOC said, I think we have it covered under sex.

So you have to understand pregnancy has always been a protected category, but now it's [00:13:00] a federal law. And I will tell you, Mike, again, encourage everybody to watch that. It is a big piece of legislation and because it's so big, you really need to train your managers. And, and I'm just going to give you a quick, quick instance. We had an employer with a pregnant worker. This is manufacturing, right? So lots of physical labor. Woman is, is obviously pregnant. Um, and the manager being nice said, Hey, Julie, I think you really, you know, I see you're struggling. I think you should really go out on leave early. So best intentions. That triggered a lawsuit.

She needed the money. She couldn't go out on FMLA, uh, for, for no pay. The company didn't have a great, you know, uh, leave policy, um, and she couldn't afford it. And she thought she [00:14:00] was being told she had to go out. Um, and this was quite a hardship for her. Your managers are on your front lines, so maybe your HR professionals understand these laws, but your managers may not, and they're dealing with your employees day in and day out, so they need to know the basics of the law, what they can and cannot say, and when to refer it to the HR professionals to work through the situation.

Mike: Yeah.

Mary: Very important. Um, so, So here's, here's some specifics. Let's, let's talk about doing this training and I'm going to base my advice on the regulations that are written into the states that are mandated to give the anti sexual harassment training, because I feel it's very good guidance. So number one, Mike, if you're going to do this training, let's [00:15:00] do it right.

Um, and let's make sure that we record it. We have a saying in HR, if you don't record it, if it's not written down, it didn't happen. So first things first, have a sign in sheet where the employee, and I've made the mistake, don't just have them sign, and don't just have it printed. It, print their name so that.

People can read it and then have them sign it, have a date on that sign in sheet, um, and you can store that for at least 5 years and I would store it, you can store it electronically or you can store it, in, a hard copy, um, you know, I, I like it. Virtual files these days, I just think it's a little bit easier.

Um, you know, our sister's systems account for that. And I think many others. The other reason for that sign in sheet, Mike is if there's a lawsuit or [00:16:00] litigation triggered, or if you're in a mandated state, and you're audited, they want to see who was trained and quickly. You don't want them going into every single employee file and pulling the certificate of completion, which is your second piece of documentation that you should have.

What we do is we make a pretty certification certificate and we, we send it to the employee. Listen. When you do this training, uh, there is a benefit to the employee. Any training shows your employee we care about you, we're invested in your success, and we're going to help with your success by giving you training.

And, you know, this is where I invite clients to customize these trainings, because if you're in a bar or restaurant setting, which, you know, a lot of [00:17:00] the regulations for, like, Washington State, it's for bars and restaurants, mostly, and retail, because they know it's close quarters. It's after hours. Um, you know, it's different setting than than office space.

I customize it. That training's different. Just like the training that I do for schools is different for the teachers. My daughter is a teacher. She gets hugged every day. What's her reaction to that? What does she do? Right. So, so, um, we need to, you know, remember the setting and the industry, uh, affects any training that we do.

Our interview training. different for an office than it is for the, for the, you know, restaurants or manufacturing, uh, for that matter. So, um, sign in sheet, certificate of completion. Here's something that I, want everybody to consider. Experienced trainer. [00:18:00] So, in the regulations for the Californias and the New Yorks of the world, listen to this regulation for your trainer.

It has to be an experienced trainer. Number one, if it's an attorney, they have to have passed the bar. two years ago. So it can't just be, even though they're an attorney, that's not good enough. They have to have been practicing for two years. An HR professional that has practiced for, HR services for at least two years.

So the trainer needs to be somebody who's experienced. I worry about employers when I get on the phone and they say, Oh, the office manager does that training. Is she

Mike: And the office manager might deeply understand the material and do a fantastic job of communicating, but they're still not compliant.

Mary: Correct. [00:19:00] And do they know the regulations? Kent, here's, here's the question I want employers to ask themselves. Does the person who is doing the training, because the training needs to be at interactive, are they able to answer the tough questions? What do I do if somebody asks me out on a date and they're a subordinate? What do I do when my manager tells me my derriere looks great in my pants? In the pants I'm wearing that day. They have to be able to answer those tough questions to be able to protect the organization. And that's why those regulations are that strict. And so what I'm saying for best practice, for those of you who are not mandated, that you utilize the same because your training, I had a business owner say, I'm just going to do the training.

I said, okay. Tell me what you're going to do. Here's some [00:20:00] questions. And he was like, okay, you could do the training and he understood. And I said, listen, I'm not trying to spend your money. I'm trying to protect you. And, and, you know, my goal is always, I'm going to give you options and I'm going to tell you what, you know, what happens.

You know, in scenario A, if it goes awry, and what happens in scenario B, you choose, right? You run your business. I'm just gonna put some parameters around it. So, so we got three things. Number four, Every time you do the training, you need to give your policy and have the employee sign off on it, and you're going to cover the policy.

Why? Why does that have to happen? During your training, you need to be able to explain what is the process for making [00:21:00] a complaint. Right, and what's going to happen and those complaints should go to at least 2 to 3 individuals, right? Because you can't just say, I go to your manager. Your manager could be the 1 that is discriminating against you in a certain form, either sexual or, or based on your protected class.

So they need 2 or 3 individuals. That's why I think our employers. Like to use us because it's not the walk of shame into the HR office and, you know, some of this content can be difficult to discuss. So they feel comfortable, you know, calling our team as an, you know, outside, uh, independent, you know, team.

Uh, individual. So that policy might change. The person who was in the policy might have left. You might have changed something. Uh, policies get updated. New York changed their policy recently, so [00:22:00] that, that might change. Regardless, even if it's exactly the same, Mike, you need to show the policy. Every year and get sign off and part of your training is reviewing that policy, letting them know where they go to and besides internal remediation.

And where can they go? There has to be external remediation. And my employers will go. Why do I want to tell my employees that they can go to the New York Department of Labor to make a complaint? And it is mandated in the states that mandate it. So, again, for me, that's a best practice for the organizations that don't have to mandate it.

So,

Mike: so if I can, so I got four, four buckets, I think what you're talking about. So you got to get their sign in to that you've created an audit trail that people have attended, um, some type of a certificate of [00:23:00] completion. And presumably that could be an email. It could be a paper form that you can put on a plaque on a wall, but you have to have some audit trail of completion of the course.

It's got to be performed depending on your state, uh, uh, by a qualified professional, and you have to kind of recertify the policy. So, okay. I just, I'm just tracking to make sure that you sign in and yes, you did it. And it was delivered by a professional who's authorized and qualified. Uh, but now I need to explain to you what our policy is because of that.

Is there anything, any additional requirements around curriculum, um, of what is included in these, in these, this training, or is it, or is it just back into, you need to train on what the law says?

Mary: So for the mandated states, they're all slightly different, but there's lots of mandates. So, you know, Connecticut is two [00:24:00] hour, has to be two hours long, um, management training for, it's very long for, for a training. I will tell you, adults, lose interest after about 45 minutes. Um, so, um, California has a similar regulation.

New York does not, um, but all of the mandated states say that it has to be interactive. So what does that mean? That means they have to be able to ask questions and, uh, what we do, and listen, it's a best practice for all training, is to ask questions of the audience. So, Mike, can you give me an example of, you know, what, you know, a joke that, that, um, you know, or a verbal way that somebody could, you know, You know, harass somebody, and you'd say, you know, off color jokes.

So, there is lots and lots of specifics for the mandated [00:25:00] states, and they're all slightly different. A few of the states have bystander intervention, and I'll talk about that for one quick minute. What does that mean? That means That if you and I are in a room with, let's say, a gentleman by the name of Pat, and you see Pat doing something inappropriate to me, um, you know, violating my protected category, uh, you should, as a bystander, interact and say, Pat, that's inappropriate.

Please don't do that. And minimally, you should go to the individuals in the policy that you should report. bad behavior to. That's bystander intervention mandated in New York City [00:26:00] and Chicago and parts of California and a couple other states. But that, that is a big carve out and a big differentiator.

I'm not a huge fan because I've seen it, it backfire. Um, and so, uh, To me, not a best practice for the states that don't mandate it. I would stick to what are the EEOC protected categories? What are the additional protected categories in my area? I'd customize it for my industry, right? Because when we talk about this, somebody can harass an employee Can harass a client or a vendor Yeah. and vice versa.

So we have to let our employees know we are here to protect you. Please let us know, even if [00:27:00] it's our best client, I need to know if you feel like you, your rights have been violated. And then what, what, you know, we do as HR professionals is we do an investigation and, and that's a second piece, uh, to this is that organizations, if you're going to do this training and you're going to take the time to write a policy, or we'll write it for you, um, you need to act.

on these, um, responses from your employees, these complaints from employees. They need to know you have their back. And again, we're going to tie that back to culture. People need to feel like they're fully heard, um, and that they feel

Mike: the, the states or municipalities that mandate the bystander to report. I mean, this just screams for outsourcing HR to a third party. If you're, if [00:28:00] you're, if you're a 10 person company or, and I'm sure it will depend geography by geography, maybe 10 employees, you're not mandated. Maybe it's over X number of employees.

Let's pretend you're a 25 employee company and you're mandated to the bystanders to report. 25 people. Everybody knows everybody. And everybody knows who the dirty joke tellers are. Everybody knows who the good employees are, who the bad employers, everybody knows, right? And, they know that reporting it to quote unquote HR internally.

Well, that might be friends or spouse with the offender. I mean, that's small companies, right? Right. so this just screams to have, a third party that these, bystanders would actually feel comfortable that they could, could report a concern. I think, I think it's safe to say a lot of people just, they don't want to be, they don't want to be caught up in that and they're afraid to [00:29:00] report because they're afraid of retaliation.

Mary: It's, so let me give you a quick example.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah.

Mary: we, we recommend everybody does this training, obviously. Um, But we, we have an employer in North Carolina and, you know, I think they were, you know, on board, but they only have 21 employees. It's, you know, a small organization and they're not mandated to do it.

So they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's, let's work on job descriptions first. We'll get around to the training. So, a brand new employee, a woman, came forward and said that, you know, she felt like she was being sexually harassed. Now, I can't even repeat the emails that she got, not from her manager, but another manager in the organization.

And when we did the investigation, This manager said, yeah, here's the email I sent her and [00:30:00] was it bad that I told her that I think, you know, bigger women like her or are really sexy and that I showed her that I can't even repeat it. I'm not going to repeat it. It would make your hair curl, you know, or your beard curl.

Mike: Yeah. It might be.

Mary: So, I mean, they sometimes don't. No, they don't know that saying these things and doing these things aren't right. And so this employer was like, you were right. You were right. And, and if we had done the training with this manager have been like, Oh, I can't say stuff like that. Oh, I guess I won't. Uh, I don't know, Mike, but at least if this turns into a litigation.

They would have been covered. They did the training. Um, I will tell you that when you, we have many clients that come to us because they had litigation and guess what the [00:31:00] court does? The court will say, here's your giant fine because your manager and an employee, you know, harassed another employee. But for the next three years, we mandate that you give your managers weekly.

Training. weekly on this subject. So, you know, that's costly. It's time consuming. Had they done the training ahead of time, and by the way, that client was in California, so they should have been, had they done it ahead of time, it would have gone better for them, right? It probably would have been a year or it would have been more training.

Mike: I want to explore, I want to explore the benefits here outside. Maybe we should, maybe it's staying the obvious. I think we need to, is the specific ways this, in which this protects, um, cause I, ideally you're [00:32:00] preventing bad behaviors from ever happening in the first place. But I want to talk about, You know, when enforcement does happen, a lawsuit happens, an EEOC investigation happens, how doing these things specifically can protect.

We don't want anybody to game the system. We want you to do this for the right reasons, but sometimes you could do the right thing and an employee still sue you fraudulently under a false basis and you're right. You need to have a way to defend yourself before we even get into too much of that detail.

How does enforcement usually happen here? I, I, I'm assuming very few, if any people listening today have ever had an EEOC official knock on their door for a random audit, that this probably originates by an impacted, offended employee. And that employee could be right. They could be wrong. They could be simply [00:33:00] perceptions.

It could be, but it doesn't matter. It starts with them going to an attorney and an attorney suing, and you have a lawsuit that then ends up in the EEOC being involved. Am I thinking about that right?

Mary: You are, I'll just add one other instance, which is that you have individuals. Trolling ads, um, applying for jobs and going through the interview process, um, that may be, you know, 1 area that I really want to point out, um, you know, pregnancies is, you know, important all the protected classes. We need to think about.

But another protected category is, of course, disabilities through the ADA. So you have individuals, um, who are going, looking at your ad to make sure that it is compliant and, um, you know, will [00:34:00] allow for maybe the disability. And then you have them come on interviews and you also have attorneys that are looking.

Um, at your ads, at your applications, um, putting ads in the newspaper and saying, has this, you know, happened to you, et cetera. So you have, you have a lot of education being pushed out to your employees. When I did this seminar, um, this week, um, I had some interesting questions. The first interesting question was somebody said.

Well, how's anybody going to know? Right? A woman said, raised her hand and said, well, is it okay if I don't hire somebody because they're visibly pregnant? I mean, why would I hire somebody if they're pregnant? They're going to go out on leave. And I said, because if they're the best candidate, that's the individual you [00:35:00] should hire, or you just, you know, violated title 7.

You discriminated based on the protected class of pregnancy. See? The other person said, how are they going to know? I said, because your employees and your applicants and candidates are know these laws. It's out there, it's on social media. It's, you know, it's in the news. It's. You know, everybody gets their news in their hands now.

Um, you know, because I'm in New York, I, you know, I take a subway, um, and, and trains a lot. It's all, there's posters everywhere. So, our employee base is well educated, as they should be, right? None of us want to violate, um, individuals privacy. Uh, protected category, right? So what I hear from employers a lot, Mike, um, is, well, Mary, [00:36:00] this is an employee employment at will state.

And I say, understood, uh, that doctrine, that regulation says, uh, we enter into the employment agreement with a candidate at will, the candidate enters at will, we can both leave that agreement at any time for any reason. But you cannot violate state or federal

Mike: Right.

Mary: when you do that.

Mike: That's right. In ignorance of the law, no excuse. Just because I, just because I didn't realize it went from a 55 mile an hour zone to a 45 mile an hour zone, I didn't see the sign. Maybe the sign was torn down. Who knows? It was blocked by a bush or something. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

I'm still going to get my ticket for driving 55 in the 40, right? I mean, you have to know the laws. It's your responsibility. Um, so just so folks understand. And I'm going back [00:37:00] to my kind of restating the question though, that most of these things happen when an employee. Is grieved in any way, whether they're right or wrong, it doesn't matter.

They could be a really happy long term employee and it's their spouse that puts them out of this. It could be a friend. It could be something that they saw on social media. It could be a sign on the subway. Something triggers like, Whoa, I mean, my employer can't do that to me. So some event. And the first thing they generally, they don't, they don't go to the EEOC.

They don't know, the employee doesn't know the EEOC is the governing body to enforce Title VII. They don't even probably, they might not know what those things even are, but they sure as hell know what an attorney is.

Mary: Yes. Yes. And they can also go right to the Department of Labor or the EEOC and, and right now those are, those are two government agencies where you can make your claim. via the internet. So you don't have to take a day off and march down to the office like you used to have to [00:38:00] do, you know, six or seven years ago.

You just do it online. It's, it's that easy. And that's why

Mike: From your phone in the break room of the place that just aggrieved you.

Mary: yeah, I, I did this training once for, for a manufacturer. And right after I did the training, they had a claim and the owner of the company called me and he said, you know, I'm kind of salty with you that you did this training. I have a claim already and I said, well, here's what I'm going to tell you the situation happened.

So, whether they came to you, or they went to an external remedy, the difference is I made it clear. And I made it easy for them to make the complaint to us so that we could fix the situation. You want to know if these situations are going on. And by the way, just as an aside, because I like to give examples, when I [00:39:00] did the investigation.

Again, um, this gentleman, uh, had taken pictures, uh, at a, at an employee event and it was mostly breasts and then went and showed everybody. Um, he was crying and he said, I'm so sorry, I'm married. Don't tell anybody I did this. I thought they looked good. I felt like this was a compliment. Right? So, and you're going, really?

You know, shocked that somebody would be that ignorant, but that's why you need to do the training. You know, people make dumb mistakes

Mike: Can you just be, is there anything more that you, before I jump to, to culture in the non legal compliance reasons to do this, about building a productive, loyal, Uh, uh, work, work force in, in a, in a team. Um, anything else you want to say on the compliance side and, [00:40:00] you know, uh, I'll go back, obviously effective training helps to prevent future incidents.

That's the real goal. Worst case scenario, you do the training and something does happen. That employee does contact an attorney. That employee, that attorney, uh, files a lawsuit and notifies EEOC. So now you're in, you're in a bunch of hot water. What are the specific ways that doing the training and following the steps, sign in certification of completion, qualified trainer and policy.

How is it that those things help protect you whether you're right or wrong when a case does come up?

Mary: because it doesn't appear that you have a willful violation. It appears that you did some proactive, preventative measures. Uh, To, you know, uh, hopefully educate your workforce that this is unacceptable behavior. Uh, and so your, your [00:41:00] punishment, if you will, if you're found guilty, uh, will be lesser because it's not a willful violation.

So, even if you say. I had no idea this law existed. Uh, like you said, ignorance is not a defense in any way, shape or form. The, the courts will often take it one step further and say, well, you, you're saying you didn't know about it. Our belief, because there's enough education out there for you to know, our belief is that you willfully decided not to do the training.

And I can tell you that that's true. You know, for S, for some employers, I don't have the time, I don't have the money, uh, I can't pull people off the floor. Uh, there's lots of excuses that I hear about not doing the training and it, and it, it, You know, really, you know, it worries me for them because I see the other side.

I see the lawsuits of the employers that get [00:42:00] caught. And those people who say to themselves, I don't, you know, I'm not going to get caught. I never got caught. And, you know, it's not gonna happen. Like I said, 20 employee company in, you know, North Carolina. It happened to big companies where you really think it happens.

Yes, it does. And, you know, now you're gonna talk about culture. This is the 2nd reason to do it. It's not just compliance, right? I don't, I don't. We always talk about compliance, but when I talk about a really strong HR function, that HR function is rooted in compliance, but the goal is to have an HR function that drives the success of the company.

And that's where this culture piece that you're going to talk about next, that's where that piece comes in.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, so let's, let's just go there. Um, [00:43:00] you, there's the, there's the IBIS. If I live at a place that I must comply with a law. Um, so there's the, and then there's the proactive, uh, protective, almost insurance policy in case someone comes after me that, uh, uh, I, I, I have the documentation, the audit trail to prove that, you know, this isn't male intent, how does that, how does doing this rise above into just impacting Culture in building a team based on transparency, trust, communication, all those things.

Mary: So you, you want individuals to understand that. You know, everybody is treated equally, right? And equal is a very difficult word, um,

because word even these days. Yes.

and, and, and equal sometimes, um, looks different [00:44:00] to different people. So, you know, what I what I always say when I do the training is, you know, this is the platinum rule that we use.

We're not treating others the way. We want to be treated. That's the golden rule. The platinum rule is we're treating others the way they want to be treated. And if your employees don't feel like they are fully heard, um, you know, even if they're women, even if they're older, even if they're disabled and people may look upon them as though, you know, they're, they're, you know, different, uh, because they are.

Differences need to be embraced in an organization because if you have somebody that is not, doesn't feel like they're going to be heard and isn't sharing their creativity, isn't working to full capacity, isn't engaged, it hurts your organization, right? Growth comes from a diversity of ideas and a diversity of [00:45:00] ideas comes from diverse individuals.

If the individuals at our organization look exactly the same? Sound exactly the same? Where is the creativity? Where is the added, um, you know, uh, growth from, from new ideas? So, uh, this culture piece is the reason that I like this training to be customized. I hear individuals, you know, that I know go, I gotta do the anti harassment training.

Mike: Yeah.

Mary: And maybe, you know, it's, it's a plug and play, right? Where's the engagement, right? They're dreading that training. That training is not meeting the point. You might've checked a box and, and I, you know, that's one good thing. But besides check, checking the box, you shouldn't waste an hour of your employee or your manager's time if it's not going to help propel your [00:46:00] organization and that individual further. Make it count.

Mike: I think there's a couple of plays here. Number one, there's a diversity play, diversity of thought. Um, and we're not talking. You know, quotas based on protected groups. We're just talking diversity, period, diversity of education, diversity of background, diversity of thought. That's all fine and good. Um, that, that, that made it sound like I was dismissing it.

I really, I really believe in it. Um, It's also true that you might be, uh, in the greater metro area of pick a big city and you have opportunity for diversity of talent and thought that to bring in, you might also be. Uh, uh, uh, somewhere in middle America, that your community within a 20 mile radius of your business is very homogeneous and everybody goes, went to the same school, everybody goes to the same church, they all are the same gender, the same race, I mean, there, I think [00:47:00] there's still tremendous value.

And so, so even if there's not the opportunity to bring in as much diversity in a traditional way to describe that, there's just something Honest about putting the team. Here's, here's the rules for the team and no individual, uh, is above the team. And so one individual acts badly. We're, we're not gonna, we're not gonna shove it under the rug.

We're gonna have an open, we're gonna have an investigation. We're gonna explain the policy. No bad behavior is going to be tolerated. No, no matter how, uh, uh, high of a performer that employee is, because we're committed to this team being successful. And I think when you train in this and you hold, then maybe, maybe the rubber hits the road on the accountability side, because when something does happen, that you actually act on it.

And, you know, I've done, uh, done episodes of the show on this topic. [00:48:00] It's how you respond when an event does happen. That's where you really show your character. And I think that's where you can really build a team. Whether it's a traditionally visually diverse team or a homogeneous team, uh, by all those outward standards.

Do the people know? That the standard is going to be held for high behavior and high expectation for everybody. And we're all going to be treated that way. And there's not an exception when you have that, man, people will lean in to the team and they'll, they'll give you their best because they know you as the boss, you got their back and you're going to be, you might be, you might be imperfect.

Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, Mary.

Mary: Yeah, no, no, there's trust and respect. I, I agree with everything you were saying. And when, uh, when you have trust, you're right, people are engaged and they're going to give you 110 percent and that's the way you grow business. Right. Um, and you know, [00:49:00] let's just also say that we're talking about culture, right?

You want people to want to come to work and give their all.

Mike: Mary, anything you'd say in closing? I think we got, I think we covered the topic pretty well, but what, what, what, what would be your, what would be your closing thoughts here?

Mary: I would say that, um, you know, again, I recommend that everybody obviously has this as a policy. There should be an EEO policy in everybody's handbook. We included in every single handbook. We do mandated state or not. The mandated states have extra. Uh, it's a. Probably two pages instead of a paragraph. So number one, everybody should have that policy.

Part of your federal mandated poster is an anti harassment policy. So you know if it's in the poster, you should also have it in your handbook. And the second piece is doing the training. Do the training [00:50:00] where possible. Customize that training for your organization. And your industry and your population so that they understand, number one, you are protecting them.

You're on their side. Number two, everyone in the organization is respected and will be fully heard. And number three. If that does not occur, where can they go within the organization and externally to make a complaint? And what's the outcome of that? Uh, you know, we state, of course, that there'll be an investigation within that policy.

So, all of those things should be present for, for my, you know, uh, for my, my advice here is that every organization does those things.

Mike: Agree completely. Enjoy the conversation. Thanks, Mary.

Mary: Thanks, Mike.

Mike: Uh, and to everybody else, uh, for joining, thank you for [00:51:00] joining. Um, if you're trying to grow your business, this might be, maybe it wasn't a problem when you're small. You got a small team. It could have been family members that you're, are your employees.

Uh, that brings a whole nother set of, of, uh, a dynamic here. But as you grow, you're going to get to a level, you're going to have additional people that you're hiring from a more diverse, a bigger pool of employees. Things are going to happen. Misunderstandings are going to happen. I think we give the benefit of the doubt to small business owners that, you know, People aren't out there trying to intentionally sexually harass people.

They're not trying to intentionally break laws, but the laws are stacking up on each other and every new law that gets added, there's not another one that gets taken away and it's very common that, uh, laws are on the books where you do business that you need to comply with that you don't even know about.

So number one is you got to find out what the laws are. You got to [00:52:00] follow the law. And then as you try to build a team. that is going to get behind your mission, your vision, your values that is based on trust and respect and therefore highly productive and loyal to that mission. Uh, you're going to need to have these kinds of policies.

You're going to need to train your employees. You're going to need to train your managers and to help create this environment of trust and respect. So, uh, with that, uh, we thank you for joining today and letting us be part of your mission to grow.

Outro: That's it for this episode of Mission to Grow. Thanks for joining us today. For show notes and more episodes, visit us at missiontogrow. com. If you found this content valuable, I invite you to share it with a friend and subscribe to the show. If you really want to help, I'd love it if you left a five star review on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you listen.

Mission to Grow is sponsored by Asure. Asure helps more than 100, 000 businesses get access to capital, stay compliant, and develop the talent they need [00:53:00] To learn more about how Asure can help your business grow, visit AsureSoftware. com. Until next time.